Grieving in Color Episode #7:

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Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:00:05] Welcome to Grieving in Color, a podcast that explores the various ways we navigate our experiences with grief and loss and a place where we find courage to intentionally heal in our daily lives. I'm your host, Dr. Chinasa Elue, a professor, speaker, and grief coach. And I'm inviting you to join me on this journey, embracing our grief and the full spectrum of our emotions, a palette of feelings that colors our lives even in the face of loss. Each episode, we dive into real stories of healing and growth, as we also feature guests who have found strength in sorrow, love in loss and joy even in their darkest times. Grieving in color is about acknowledging the pain, the loss, and the grief. But it is also about finding hope, love and joy again. Whether you are currently on your grief journey or supporting someone who is, this is a space for you. We are here to remind you that you are not alone, and it's okay to grieve in your own color.

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Hey, good people. Welcome to the Grieving in Color Podcast. I'm so excited for our guests joining us today because we have a very important topic we're going to discuss, and it's navigating the dualities of grief and joy. So, before we kick things off, I want to introduce you to my amazing guest today because we have a wonderful conversation plan for you all. So, Dr. Pamela Larde is a professor, coach, author, business owner, and Director of Education for the Institute of Coaching. She remains committed to engaging in the work of advancing the reach and commitment of the coaching profession to serve and build up heart-centered leaders around the world. Dr. Larde spent 12 years in student leadership development at Claremont Colleges and Marquette University, 11 years as a professor of research at Mercer University's TIF College of Education, and was appointed associate professor of leadership for Anderson University's PhD leadership program in 2021.

Her research focuses on race and gender dynamics, self-motivation, joy, resilience, and post-traumatic growth. Additionally, she has written three books and has contributed chapters to publications in education and research, and presents her research for national and international audiences. As a dedicated member of the global community, Dr. Larde is committed to taking the lead and addressing compelling social issues via coach training through the ICF Accredited Academy of Creative Coaching, which she founded in 2013. The Academy is the first black female-owned ICF accredited coaching school in the world. Finally, her podcast, The Joy Whisperer, is a platform for discussion that covers issues concerning humanity, intellect, change, and of course, joy. Dr. Larde, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you. How are you doing today?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:03:13] I am great. I'm so honored to be here. I love that you have this podcast. So I'm really excited about what we'll be talking about today.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:03:21] Yes. And when I was thinking about this topic, I said, there's no other person I would want to have it with than you, given your focus on joy. And so I want to kick things off with having you share with us your personal experience of where you felt a profound sense of joy, maybe perhaps in the midst of some deep grief as well. So share with us a little bit about your journey and what triggered that joy.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:03:45] Oh, gosh, that's so interesting. So I would probably say the biggest chunk of my life where I've had to utilize joy, if I look at it that way, there's a lot of different ways to look at joy, but ways in which I had to intentionally utilize joy in the midst of struggle or pain or grief, was probably most definitely the time of my divorce and then transitioning to a life that I did not expect that I was going to be having. I grew up in a two parent household that felt very secure and in my life, that's what I wanted for myself and my kids. So being 33 years old and going through a divorce with a two year old and an 11 year old was not at all the plan that I had for my life. So there was a mourning process of transitioning from that situation of what I thought could be the ideal life to creating a new idea of what an ideal life is.

And I'm really grateful for the fact that I was able to curate a new idea, what a ideal life would be, because there's not just one, there's not just one way to do that mourning and sad that it had to happen because of a divorce. So really having that double consciousness of I went through this really painful process and because there's really no but, and I have learned how to curate joy in my life in the process and then long after the process. That was 14 years ago. So that was a process of growth and life change that I continue to take with me today.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:05:33] Wow. Thank you so much for walking us through how you have been able to really glean or lean into this season where there was profound grief and loss, but also being able to rediscover what joy looks like in real time as you've moved on. And so, as you think about perhaps the emotions of grief and joy, we know that oftentimes these are two different emotions on different sides of the spectrum, but we recognize, especially in our conversation today, that both can coexist.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:06:00] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:06:01] So can you describe perhaps your thoughts around the interplay between grief and joy, and do you think these emotions are mutually exclusive? Or how do they perhaps interchange in and coexist in different spaces together?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:06:16] Yeah. so what's coming to mind as we're talking is the yin and the yang. And just the ways in which there's an interplay between the polar opposites, I should say. And so if we look at grief and joy as polar opposites, we see them as being able to sort of flow into each other at different points in our lives. One of the things that I guess that I came to in my own research around joy, is that it is so much more than an emotion. And that's a good thing because when I use the term, I utilize my joy that presents joy as a strategy and as a tool and a way to overcome some of the challenging things that we have in life.

So there is the emotion of joy, and there's also three other ways that we express our joy. And I have these four, what I call the four practices of joy. And we have the emotion of joy. So we express it through emotion. We have the, I'm like, what is it? We have the emotion of joy. We have the experience of joy. So we create experiences that bring joy, or we bask in those experiences, we welcome those experiences. Then we have the expression of joy. What do we do with our bodies to show that we are feeling the joy? Maybe it's we dance. Maybe it's we embrace somebody. I've had events where, or speaking engagements where I've played music and I've watched the audience, and some of them are dancing, and others are just quietly with their eyes closed, swaying to the music.

And so expressing joy doesn't always have to be this dynamic outward expression that everybody can see, but it is something that your body does in response on the outside to joy. And the last one is our physiological response to joy. And what goes on inside of us. And that's sometimes we get goosebumps, sometimes we well up with tears and then, and I am sorry, I left one out. And that's the ethos of joy. That's our character and our values. That's when we serve somebody else, or we're just sitting with somebody else because this is what we believe in. They're going through a difficult time, and we find joy in being able to help and serve others, or whatever those values are, whatever that value that brings you joy.

We dive into that and that's part of our character and our ethos. So, to answer the question about how the emotion of joy and sort of have the interplay with that and grief, we have the emotion of joy that it can counter the grief, it can sit with the grief, but it is also something that helps us understand the grief and operationalize ways ways to manage it or to grow from it, or to respond to it. We don't want to cover the grief and pretend it's not there. That's not what joy does. Joy enables us to continue on, and it gives us the strength to keep going in the midst of grief.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:09:31] I love that so much because you've walked us through the tangible ways that joy can manifest in different aspects of life. And I've never thought about it in those four distinct ways that you've laid it out. And so it's really interesting to have language and a framework to even begin to think about how joy can look like in our day-to-day lives. And so thank you for that. As we're thinking about perhaps how joy and grief can coexist and coincide in what ways can moments of joy provide healing or relief during times of grief? Do you think that perhaps joy can help in reframing our perspectives on loss? I think about the current state of the world, all of the different things that we see so much sadness, so much grief, so much loss. What role, if any, do you think Joy can provide in helping us heal?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:10:19] I had a question that was similar and was directly related to being in a state of war in a situation in which you are literally in the throes of war, which is probably one of the most difficult situations for any human being to be in, because you have a combination of tragedy happening all at one time, and then the uncertainty of what's going to happen next. And the question that was posed to me was, how can somebody possibly find joy in moments like that and in situations like that? And so I want to answer your question by sharing kind of what I talked about in that question. And it's really, what I refuse to do is tell people, when you're in your situation, just throw some joy on top of it and you'll be fine.

Or just figure out ways to be happy. You'll be good. What I like to acknowledge is that these things hurt. These things are real. These things cause life changing, life shifting, where you'll never be the same kind of same person again, type of change. So what do we do? Where does joy come in with pain that cuts that deep? And what I like to tell people is that sometimes joy is the only thing that will give us the will to get up and to keep trying. Because when we are so overcome with pain, when we are so overcome, that's the thing that makes us want to just give up and quit and say, you know what? I can't do this anymore. So if we are able to harness some level of joy, some pocket of joy, whether that is drawing joy from the future with the hopes that we have for what we'd like to see, or it is pulling from the past, those memories that bring us joy, even if we can't find it right here, right now, we look around and it's nowhere to be found.

It's not even inside of us in ways that we can obviously see trying to pull from our hopes, trying to pull from our memories. Those are survival skills. And if we remember, I need to do this with intention, not because I feel good, not because life is great right now, but because I have to get through this next 30 seconds because I have to get through this next two hours, because I don't know how long I have to get through this. So I'm going to implement strategies to give me the strength and the will and the vision to just keep going.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:12:53] Thank you so much. I just had to pause. And as you were saying that, I mean, it was so profound. Joy helps us even in the midst of our deepest pain. And just the way you phrased it right now, having the will to just get up even in the midst of all of the hurt that exist in these spaces is profound. And oftentimes, I don't know if our mind goes there, but it's great to have some language and verbiage to kind of guide us in that direction when we don't feel like we have the hope to go on.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:13:23] It's intention. It is 100% in those moments, intention, if we think about Viktor Frankl, who in his experience in concentration camp. And the only thing that he attributes to being able to get out of that is the hope for the future and the joy that he pulled in that he reeled in, in order to get through those moments. And I've just heard so many stories of people in some of the most dire situations. And that's exactly how they, I mean, if we look at the civil rights movement and you see pictures of Martin Luther King and some of the other civil rights leaders in moments of joy. They had to find moments of laughter, moments of, and you mentioned, you said the word relief, and I think relief is the most basic, and it's probably even below the baseline of zero that we can get to.

It's almost like relief is just getting us to that next level so it doesn't hurt so bad, and to that next level and to that next level. But what we have to realize is that still doesn't get us to the basic baseline of wellness. And so relief isn't enough, but it is something that we seek and that we need in order to sort of get us like, okay, I can do this. I can move forward a little bit. I need a break. I need to breathe. And so, there is merit to the idea of I need some relief, but let's remember the goal is I need to get to a place of joy. That's where our wellness lives.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:15:01] I love that. And it's ushering us right into our next question in terms of wellness, right? So we know that grief and joy manifests in the body differently. And so in your work, and I know you gave us a wonderful framework to kind of help situate how joy can exist in different spaces. Have you noticed perhaps any discernible differences in how we are able to physically experience both joy and grief? And do you think they can occur concurrently at the same time?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:15:30] I think they absolutely occur at the same time. One of the things that I think is so important for us to understand is that when we are experiencing joy, it does not mean we are not experiencing grief and pain. And the only way I think to address our pain, or the most important way to address our pain is to acknowledge that pain. So some of those of you who follow me on social media probably saw that on Monday or Tuesday, I posted, I'm at my witts end. I am exhausted. I am. And there's criticism, some people are like, girl, that's life stop whining. And then there's other people that are, they acknowledge it and they're like, here's what I do, and that kind of thing.

And while social media might not be your place to express those things and keep in mind when I express those things, it's because it's my wheelhouse. It's my platform, and I want other people to learn with me. And so when I do that it is my way of calling out the pain. It's my way of calling out, here is what I'm feeling, and here is what I'm going through. When we do that, it is our way of being able to acknowledge what's going on. And if we don't acknowledge it, what we don't acknowledge, we cannot resolve. So if we walk around and pretend that there is, not grief, or if we allow other people to tell us it's time to get over the grief, then we are not in a position, or we're not allowing ourselves to feel that pain and to feel what we're feeling, feeling what we're feeling gives us the space that we need to fix it to heal ourselves, to address.

So my posting that I was doing that in the midst of already, like, I need to put things in place to get myself right. And it's working. I mean, two days later, and I'm like, whew, I already feel better. And it's because I called it out. And everybody has a different way of doing that. For them, it might be journal writing. For others, it might be calling a friend. For others it may be asking somebody to pray for them. So there's different ways, but we have to call it out. We have to acknowledge it so that we can heal, because we do feel these things simultaneously.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:17:51] Ooh, I love that so much. And it's interesting as you were sharing how you were in a place of exhaustion and sharing it online. I was thinking back how early on when I lost my mom, I literally could feel the grief in my body. Right? I could feel the weariness and the weight of her loss. And it was like a cloak that was hanging over me at times.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:18:10] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:18:11] And it was interesting to be honest with you, that when I felt like that I recognized that I needed to get up and start moving in some form or fashion, right? Because physically it was heavy. But the minute I started moving, or if I went to the gym really quickly to get a quick workout in my emotions immediately lifted, right? There was a more joyful countenance that was present there. And although I was still deeply in grief, I was also hopeful at the same time, right? So I don't know, there seems to be some physiological connection here to how we are moving through grief, but then allow ourselves the opportunities to experience joyful emotions, right? The joy, even in the midst of that pain at the same time.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:18:53] Well, I think that the physiological response is that of relief. I just need some of this heaviness to be lifted for a minute, and it's exactly how you described it. But I would eventually say that I bet that it's very much about that physical sense of relief that you feel when you're able to find those moments of joy.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:19:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. You know a big part of this podcast is also talking about the ways that we are able to be in community with each other as well as we walk through difficult challenges, particularly with grief. And so how do you think communal events like celebrations or ceremonies help in bridging the gap between grief and joy? Do you think community can help support in balancing these different types of emotions around grief and joy as well?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:19:46] Yes. Community is a huge part of my framework for joy. And it's called the multidimensional framework of joy. And basically the pieces are at the top, if you can sort of visualize this is the idea of wellness. And the condition of our wellness then informs two other parts of our lives, which is one, our communities which I call our community of joy. And then the second thing our wellness informs is our practices of joy. When we are well, we engage in healthy practices of joy that nurture us and contribute to our wellness as well as to the wellness of others. When we are not well, and we're operating in that unwellness, our practices of joy tend to be harmful practices, like let's say, over drug use or over sexing, or over name it, over candying, which I've done.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:20:43] Yes. the sweets, all of it.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:20:44] Trying to find the joy.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:20:45] Come on.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:20:48] So our lack of wellness and operating in that lack of wellness can lead to forms of joy that harm others, finding joy in other people's pain or harm ourselves. So if we look at the other side of that, and we look at our communities and how our wellness informs the types of communities that we curate and how we nurture those communities. First of all, they are pivotal communities are pivotal in helping us maintain our joy. It is not something that we do in isolation for extended periods of time. Do we need to find joy in isolation in moments? Absolutely. I think about just different people who have experienced loneliness and isolation and have had to figure out I mean, even people, if you read about folks who have been in what is that when your maximum security isolation.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:21:44] The prisons?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:21:45] Yeah. And they're just in, which is to me completely inhumane, but they have to be in complete isolation for years.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:21:52] Solitary solitude.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:21:53] Solitary confinement.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:21:54] Yes. Solitary confinement.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:21:55] And I've heard stories of how they have survived through just, their own autonomy and going into their own spiritual realm, and finding joy in those moments, and finding peace and hope in those moments. So yes, we can curate joy when we're in isolation when we have to be, but the best way and the most healthy way, and the most productive way to curate joy is with our communities. And I won't go into the whole community of joy model, but what's important for us to recognize about our community is that all members of our community, which may sound obvious, are not there to help nurture our joy. So it's very important that we gravitate and even clinging to those communities and those people within those communities that do nurture our joy. So, communal celebrations, traditions. During Covid, there were great examples of how people tapped into their communities to find creative ways to virtually ignite joy. So that was a huge survival technique when we were all in quarantine so our communities. And we realized how important they were when we were isolated from them physically.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:23:10] Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you so much for that. And I was thinking as you were talking about the importance of just making sure, again, it's the appropriate communities that do foster and make space for us to lean into them for that type of joy. My first birthday after my mom passed away, and I dreaded it for so long, I just when you're walking through that first year without your loved one, it's just like, okay, we're doing the things, we're having the birthday celebrations here and there. I think that was my 35th birthday. And it was a milestone birthday, but in a lot of ways it just didn't feel like celebrating. And yeah, my sister and some close friends organized a surprise party for me. And as much as I didn't want it, I didn't know I needed it. And even in that-

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:23:54] Well, that's probably why it was a surprise. We're not telling her.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:23:55] Yes. I would say, no, don't do it. But it, even in the midst of deep pain, when I saw them and the effort and the love and the care that they had towards me it brought so much joy in that season. Okay. So I definitely resonate with everything you've shared in regards to the importance of those celebrations, even as we're navigating both the ins and outs of grief and joy at the same time.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:24:23] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:24:24] Yeah. So, do you think in your work, do you think experiencing both grief and joy can have an impact on our relationships? And I mean relationships of all kinds? Or do you think in the same vein, do you think experiencing grief and joy can bring people closer together or put some distance between them because these are two, different ends of the spectrum here?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:24:47] Yeah. Well, I think it's a very, it reveals some things for us. We go through phases in life where we realize who the people in our lives are that we need to hold onto. And those who their season has expired. And it doesn't mean that it's a bad thing or that, it just means that this is a season and it's time to move forward. And I've had very much that kind of season, just over the past year and realizing, okay, these are the people that I really need to make sure because I've gone through some challenges this year, realizing how people have responded to me during those challenges. One of the things that I will say that with my communities of joy model all the communities aren't pretty, there's a community that I have listed in the model that's called our fragmented community.

And that's the community that has levels of jealousy or indifference or actually malicious intent towards you. And the folks with indifference are sometimes they might be hard to recognize because they're just, you don't hear from them. You don't see them, they don't react until you reach out and you realize, whoa, that feels really cold. And so why would I include fragmented communities in our communities of joy? It's because two reasons. Number one, because they are hinders of our joy. If that's the right, they're blockers. They are people who make it very difficult for us to bask into our joy. And we have to know who those people are so that we can position them correctly in our lives. I don't recommend, let's just get rid of them all, because that could be a sibling, that could be your boss.

That could be, so how do you position them in your life so that they do not stifle your joy, they are still a part of your world in some way, shape, or form. The second way, reason why I include our fragmented communities is because of that idea that I talked about finding joy in other people's pain, malicious joy. And if we have communities like that, that we are diving into, they might nurture that kind of joy in us. They might be sort of our rah rah rah crowd about Yeah. Make sure you get them good and help you find joy in those kinds of situations. So it's important for us to recognize who those people are so that we can position them where they need to be.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:27:19] Ooh, I just, I mean, I love that description here, fragmented communities. My mind would've never went there. And just thinking about the complexities that exist. In my head I was like, these are the joy blockers, the people that don't want you to be happy here in some form of facet, but recognizing that relationships are complex, right? And that people serve different purposes in our lives, and some of them as you mentioned, may not be cheering us on, right? We know that life comes with its fair share of challenges, but to know that these communities of joy exist and they look different in variation, I think it's very helpful for us as we're thinking about what might that look like for us as we move ahead and try to build our own communities of joy, which we'll get to later when we talk about strategies, by the way,

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:28:09] Can I add something, because I just, I mean, literally as we're talking another sort of characteristic of a fragmented community that's not included in my book, but just came to mind as we're talking here are probably the people that are so wounded that they struggle to find their own joy. And in so doing, they are sort of they find a level of excitement when you engage in activities that are not joyful or, so they'll egg you on, and they'll, because it makes them feel better to see that, look, I'm not the only one who's in this dark place, so I want to see other people do that too. And that's another population that we have to be very careful about.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:28:57] Wow. There's just so many nuances here with these relationships again. Just extremely complex and things that we need to be mindful of as we're navigating the ins and outs of life, for sure.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:29:08] Right.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:29:09] So I have one final question before we jump into some strategies and advice. And so how do you think embracing both joy and grief can reshape our outlook on future challenges, losses, and potential celebrations that may be ahead?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:29:24] So that taps into my concept of joy, resilience, and really what joy resilience is it's this idea that regardless of whatever it is that I'm going through, I am going to hold fast to my joy, and I am going to sort of maintain my strength or regain my strength and get back to a place of peace. Whatever it takes, I'm going to use my joy to do that. There's also a concept called post-traumatic growth, and that's another really important piece of my overall framework. And what that basically says is that in the midst of my pain and my grief and whatever it is that I'm going through, and it happens at different times for people, sometimes it's after they've gone through it and they're sort of living the aftermath of that. Sometimes it's while people are right in the throes of it, some people don't have the privilege of a post for post traumatic stress. They're in it pervasively.

We can look at any war torn country or neighborhood that has consistent violence or somebody's household in which abuse is the norm. Those are situations in which people don't have the privilege of post-traumatic stress. So what do people do when they are either in it still in order to grow? And that's the idea of post-traumatic growth. How do people grow from their trauma? And what are some of the key ways, the things that are needed to do that? And I infuse joy and into that conversation. And so with that idea that the interplay of my joy and my grief and my pain it actually helps me grow. Now, resilience, I will say the difference between resilience and growth. Resilience is I'm going to get back to where I was.

I'm going to get back to a good place. It's like I'm going to put myself back at the baseline so that I'm okay. I'm not below the baseline anymore. I'm good. Growth says I'm going to get above that. So now that I'm here, let me just keep progressing and keep doing better and enhance my life and enhance the lives of others, so that I've learned from what I've experienced. So I think the two of those sort of go hand in hand. Yes, we need to be resilient. Yes, we need to bounce back, but we also, it's important for us to grow. And that's what the interplay between grief and joy does for us. It enables us to grow.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:32:07] Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. I think just, again, the verbiage and the language at times often lacks when we're trying to even parse out these different emotions, right? These experiences around grief and joy at times can be so complex. But to know that there is an opportunity or perhaps a pathway forward, even in the midst of navigating the ins and outs of life is very helpful. Especially as we're trying to maintain hope during some really challenging times.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:32:35] Right? Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:32:36] Yeah. So, I want to transition us to start thinking perhaps about some strategies that may be helpful for us in living in the dualities of both grief and joy. And so, people may experience some guilt at times when they find themselves experiencing joy or having joyful moments. After they've walked through a season of grief. Right. Or maybe they're in the midst of it.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:33:02] Right.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:33:03] So what advice might you give to someone who's dealing with letting go of the guilt so that they can embrace joy?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:33:08] Yeah, I have a whole section on the book about guilt, because there were a lot of so particularly when I spoke to black men, those were the ones that spoke most about the guilt around joy. And partly because some of their peers were struggling immensely through just a lot of different things. This was around the time that I was talking to these men around the murder of George Floyd and some of the apprehensions that they would feel around that. And there was a profound amount of guilt that some of the men expressed in diving into experiences of joy. Around that time is also when shortly after that, maybe a year later the hashtag black men frolicking was going around, and it was sort of like, let's just dive in and physically experience joy. And so many black men that I talked to didn't even know what frolicking was like, what is that? And then there were mixed feelings when pull out the Instagram and say, so here's what it is. And some were like, I'm going to do that tomorrow. And others were like, yeah, I'm going to do it, but I'm not putting on video.

So it was interesting. And so as far as strategies, it's important for us to really, so first name the guilt and understand, yes, it is hard to dive into joy, especially in the presence of people who are struggling that are in pain. And this is why it's going to be important for us to have our multiple communities of joy. Notice I use communities, plural. It's not just one community. Recognizing the communities that you are able to fully express your joy within, perhaps the community right in your household. It might be difficult to do that as there are members as families that are struggling immensely, and the last thing they need is for you to dance around the living room, in their faces. With that in mind, not only are there different communities of joy that we should be mindful of and create actively, because they don't always just exist, we should also be mindful of the different ways to live out our joy, different ways to practice our joy.

So perhaps in your household, if there is this strong mourning that's going on, maybe dancing around the living room, isn't it? However, depending on the structure and makeup of your family, maybe that's exactly what they need. So being mindful and in tune with what is needed and what is appropriate for that situation is important. I've said, name what you're feeling. It's not always appropriate to name what you're feeling in every situation all the time, but find those places where you can do it. And then in the places where you can't do it, just be respectful of what is needed in that situation.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:36:02] I love that so much. Naming what you're feeling. And as you were talking, my mind went to a time again right after my mom passed away where I was thinking about my daughter's first birthday. And that was one of the celebrations that I knew she would miss. She wouldn't be there to see her, usher in a new year. And I remember feeling so much guilt thinking that I was moving on from her, right? And I'm like, I could never like forget her. My mom in my mind, lives in my heart

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:36:31] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:36:32] As we move forward. But in that moment, I just felt guilty celebrating and being joyful, even though I was excited to celebrate my baby girl, right?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:36:40] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:36:41] So some of that guilt was present, but I think it prompted me to think about, okay, how might I still honor her in the midst of this deep grief I'm feeling, but then also give myself permission to enjoy this moment of joy I have for my daughter, hitting this milestone for us, celebrating the year of surviving a newborn.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:36:59] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:37:00] Again, right? All the things. And so I found joy in still being present and naming the emotion that was there for me, but then thinking about a way to still add meaning to the event that, to the point that it wouldn't just take me out in that regard. So.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:37:16] Right. Yeah. That's great. I mean, that's great. I mean, and the meaning part is so important. When we attach our values and what's really important to us to our healing process, it's going to be more meaningful, more sustainable. So yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:37:34] Yes. Thank you for that. So I have one final question for you as we are wrapping things up today. In one of your recent social media posts, I loved it. You mentioned that we should look for glimmers. Okay. And I want to read to the audience how you define glimmers, and then I want your take on this. Okay. So, glimmers are essentially the opposite of a trigger. Glimmers are those micro moments in your day that make you feel joy, happiness, peace, or gratitude. And you mentioned that once you train your brain to be on the lookout for those glimmers, the more these tiny moments will begin to appear. So what are some ways we can recognize the glimmers in our daily lives?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:38:11] I love that so much, and I wish I can take credit for it. I definitely borrowed that from another post, because that would've been in my book.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:38:20] Okay.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:38:21] But, a similar concept that I talked about in my book was this idea of micro moments of joy and what small moments can you just be aware of and capture on an everyday basis? There's this thing our brain does that causes us to go into a state of habituation, which is, we're just going through the motions and we're just going through the motions, and we are not recognizing the positive things that are happening around us, like being able to take a breath. Sometimes it's that small.

Sometimes that's joy. Like, that could be a source of joy if you allow it to be, or you can just let it be the thing you habituate about. Like, yeah, I breathe every day, whatever. Or you can say, I'm so grateful, and I bet you somebody who has had struggles with breathing values every single breath that they take. And so, what I always tell my clients to start with is, is what is the smallest thing? You're in immense pain right now. The situation seems impossible.

What is the smallest seemingly thing that you can acknowledge right now? Where is your power? What can you take control of and say this, I'm going to find joy in? And sometimes they can't think of anything. And I say, what about breathing? Can you just start with breathing and the breath that you have, and then let's build from there. What else do you have at your disposal to find joy in? And then we start building from there. So those little things, and I love the way that glimmers was associated as sort of juxtaposed to triggers, because we recognize triggers. We know, oh, they were triggered, but how do we become proactive about the things that are glimmers for us? I just so love that concept.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:14] I loved it too. And it made me reflect on glimmers that were helpful for me in navigating grief, right? Just simply opening up the back door and letting the sun like just shine on me literally.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:40:25] That's happening right now. Literally.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:26] Absolutely.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:40:27] My back door is open because of that.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:28] Yes.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:40:29] That it does, it glimmers me.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:33] Yes. It's like fresh air, being able to look outside and just, see vibrancy outside those doors, right?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:40:41] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:42] Taking a quick walk. During the pandemic, I started a family garden. It's dead now, but during the pandemic where we needed more joy in the midst of much grief.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:40:52] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:40:53] One thing that gave me joy was just water in my plants, like going in the backyard and just listening to the water, turn on pouring it over there, watching it drape down each of those leaves. Like it was the mindfulness aspect of it that gave me joy in doing that.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:41:07] Yes

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:08] Yes. So I looked forward to those glimmers each and every day.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:41:10] Right.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:11] Because we were isolated. We had to be indoors for our own safety. But it didn't have to be a moment where I was overcome with all of the sadness in the world. I could find pockets of joy. So I saw that concept when you mentioned it. I said, oh, I have to bring, bring this up, because I think it's going to help us be more intentional about identifying those glimmers as they unfold throughout our day.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:41:34] Yes. That's so good.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:36] Absolutely. So do you think there are any practices, as we're wrapping up our conversation, any practices or resources that may be helpful for individuals to navigate some of these complex circumstances around grief and joy?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:41:51] Yeah, so I'm releasing a course called The Practice of Joy. And that course is grounded in my four practices of joy. And that I mentioned earlier. So the practices, the four practices of joy, once again, being your ethos, your character, who you are, and how that character can exude joy in the things that are valuable to you. The experience of joy, the kinds of experiences we create and what we do with intention to feel the joy, the emotion of joy, the one we hear about the most, and what our bodies do physiologically, goosebumps, chills, whatever it is that our bodies do emotionally physiologically. And then there is the expression of joy. Do we dance? Do we close our eyes? Do we sway, do we scream, do we embrace somebody, wholeheartedly? What are those things that we do to express our joy? So those are the four practices of joy that I've pulled from both my research and a scouring of the literature from disciplines that are like theology to neuroscience, to sociology. They all have different takes on joy. And this is sort of the collective of what I saw across the different disciplines as well as what I've seen my participants do in their own practices of joy.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:43:14] Listen, we need the link to this in the show notes. Okay. So I know that listeners would definitely benefit from having access to that course and being able to glean from all of the brilliance that's there. In addition to your book, do you have any upcoming events or releases that you'd like to share with guests today?

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:43:31] So I have a few speaking some webinars that are coming up. And so if you stay connected to me LinkedIn is probably the best way. Dr. Pamela A Larde, but also my, what is that? The handle on all of my social media pages is joyresearcher, so you can follow me there. And I have a joy community, a joy resilience community that keeps everybody up to speed on, here's what's happening next. What's next for me is that I did the book tour and now I want to host this in my town. I want to host this at my home. And so I am doing sort of home runs for people who are interested in having conversations within their own communities around joy.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:44:20] All right, y'all heard it here first. Dr. Larde is spreading joy through and through. And so, Dr. Larde, I wanted to say thank you so much for taking the time to embrace and show up for the Grieving in Color podcast.

Dr. Pamela Larde [00:44:34] Thank you.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:44:35] Listeners. I will link Dr. Larde’s information in the show notes below. And Dr. Larde, I hope you have the most amazing day, good people, as we wrap up today. Thank you for tuning into this episode. Until next time, keep grieving in color.

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Thank you for choosing to spend time with me on this episode of Grieving in Color. If today's episode has resonated with you, or if you know someone who might benefit from our conversation, please share this episode with them. Also, I would love to hear your thoughts, your stories, and the ways I can support you as you navigate your own grief. You can reach out to me on my website at www.drchinasaelue.com or connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram @drchinasaelue. Your participation, your feedback, and your story helps us keep this conversation going and reaches those who need it the most. Remember, there's no right way to grieve. There's only your way, and every shade of your grief is valid.

This episode of Grieving in Color is produced by Crys & Tiana.

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