Grieving in Color Episode #6:

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Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:00:04] Welcome to Grieving in Color, a podcast that explores the various ways we navigate our experiences with grief and loss and a place where we find courage to intentionally heal in our daily lives. I'm your host, Dr. Chinasa Elue, a professor, speaker, and grief coach. And I'm inviting you to join me on this journey, embracing our grief and the full spectrum of our emotions, a palette of feelings that colors our lives even in the face of loss. Each episode, we dive into real stories of healing and growth, as we also feature guests who have found strength in sorrow, love in loss and joy even in their darkest times. Grieving in color is about acknowledging the pain, the loss, and the grief. But it is also about finding hope, love and joy again. Whether you are currently on your grief journey or supporting someone who is, this is a space for you. We are here to remind you that you are not alone, and it's okay to grieve in your own color.

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Hey, good people. Welcome to the Grieving in Color Podcast. I'm so excited for our guests joining us today. We are talking about a very important topic around anticipatory grief in the wake of caretaking, and I am super excited for our conversation today to unpack this topic further, because oftentimes we don't talk about this particular type of grief. And so, before I jump into this topic, I have the most wonderful guest joining me today to have this conversation. And I want to read you her bio really quickly.

Dr. Kamesha Spates is an Endowed Chair, Speaker, award-winning mental health equity researcher and suicidologist, and she's a self-proclaimed grandma's baby. I can't wait for y'all to hear this amazing story she's going to share today, but she currently holds the position of the William S. Dietrich Endowed Chair in the Department of Africana Studies at the University of Pittsburgh. She's also the founder and director of the Racial Justice and Health Equity Research and Education Collaborative, an initiative that trains undergraduate and graduate students to conduct health related research from an equity and transdisciplinary perspective. With over 20 years of community-based research experience her areas of specialization include race and gender-based stressors, the African American experience, mental health, and suicidology. She has dozens, I mean, dozens of publications, y'all, and two books on these topics. In her free time, Dr. Spates enjoys reading, meditating, watching documentaries, and listening to podcasts, and spending time with her husband and two beautiful children. Y'all, those children are beautiful, I will say that.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:02:53] Thank you.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:02:54] All right. So, Dr. Spates, welcome, Kamesha. I can't even thank you enough for joining me here today on this most important topic. Y'all will hear us in conversation today, Dr. Spates. I'm going to call her Kamesha for the interview. This is my girl. She is an expert through and through, and I'm so honored to have her join me on season one of the podcast. I knew I had to bring her in for this topic because she's a wealth of knowledge, y'all, I know she has some gems to share with y'all today. So, Kamesha, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:03:24] Thank You. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Chi. It's an honor and a privilege to be here. I absolutely love your podcast, and I love the space that you have created for us to have these at times very challenging, very challenging conversations. So thank you for having me, and it's an absolute joy to spend the next hour with you.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:03:45] Absolutely. So, I don't want to waste any time, because we have a lot to unpack today, right?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:03:50] Yeah.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:03:51] So, I want to first talk a little bit about anticipatory grief, and particularly for those who may not be familiar with this term. Anticipatory grief refers to the grief that arises before an impending loss, usually in the context of a loved one's terminal illness or progressively deteriorating health condition. And so, unlike the grief that occurs after the death of a loved one, anticipatory grief often accompanies a range of different emotions, such as sadness, anxiety, dread, and even some moments of peace or acceptance regarding the upcoming loss. And so, as we talk about this conversation, this particular topic today, Dr. Spates, can you share with us a little bit about your personal experience, a moment when you first recognized you were feeling, perhaps some anticipatory grief while caretaking for your own loved one?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:04:37] Yes, absolutely. So, the one thing I'll say about anticipatory grief is, to be honest with you, I didn't know anything about this topic until years later, actually, looking back in hindsight, realizing that's exactly what it was. As Dr. Chi mentioned, I am a self-proclaimed grandma's baby. And so my grandmother and I were extremely, extremely close. And so my personal encounter with anticipatory grief, I would say started in 2012. So my husband and I decided to drive from Colorado, where we were living at the time to Illinois to pick up my grandmother, because she would not fly. She was that person that was like, if God wanted me to be in the air, he would've given me wings. So we drive across country to get her 22 and a half hours to pick her up from Illinois.

But what we were doing and this still warms my heart to this day, is we decided to take her to Georgia to see family that she hadn't seen in 40 years, right? So she talked to them over the phone but she hadn't seen any of them in person for over 40 years. Now, she was born and raised in Georgia, so this was essentially like taking her home. So we drive from Colorado to Illinois, Illinois to Georgia. Okay. So we rented a minivan so she could be comfortable. We had all her favorite snacks. We had a good playlist going in the car. Really set the stage for the memories that we were hoping to develop along the way.

And so we got there and we had a couple of things planned. We spent time with family. And when we returned, because we were staying with the cousin at the time, we returned to his house, the house that we had been staying in for about three days at that point. And she couldn't remember all of a sudden where she was. And so it was a really pivotal moment. I will never forget the look on her face of just pure confusion. And at that time, I began to realize that something was different and something was shifting in her. And that's what really set off me, really began to process what this might be like long-term for her and for our family.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:07:10] Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. Because oftentimes, there often is that moment that lets us know that something is happening to our loved ones, particularly around their health, right? Things that we may not be mindful of. I think about, for instance I lost my mom, and one of the key things was she began to notice particular challenges with her blood pressure, which weren't her normal story, but those things let us know that something was shifting in her that we needed to investigate. And unfortunately, we were able to uncover that she had cancer at the time. So, can you talk a little bit in your process of coming to that realization that there perhaps was something looming in ahead in regards to her health and wellbeing? How did you navigate dealing with her health and all of the things that unfolded on the back end of that initial moment that you had?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:08:00] Yeah, that's such a great question. So what I would say is, I actually, in my family, I was the first person to notice these cognitive symptoms that were starting to pop up. My grandmother and I were very, very close. And so I could look in her eyes and tell if she was tired or if she just wasn't feeling well. And so, being very observant and being very closely connected to her I noticed that things were shifting for her in a way that for once in my life that I couldn't control, right? And so I spoke with family and loved ones, particularly my aunt and uncle. And I said, you know what? It's time to get some additional tests ran. I don't know what's going on. I can't put my finger on it, but something just feels off.

And so the way I navigated it was to talk to the family. I did have access to all her health records and her doctor's offices and the nurses and stuff. So I actually made appointments myself. And what we did is we took her and we got a brain scan. And at the time, everything came back normal. But I wasn't convinced by that because I knew her all too well. So I would say I navigated it by trying to be proactive admits the emotions that I was starting to feel around this whole thing. But I was just like, okay, wait a minute. Now we're getting ready to fight for my grandmother. What's going on? Somebody's going to get to the bottom of this, and I'm going to be right there in your face making sure I understand what you're doing. I kind of feel like I pulled up my sleeves and went to war a little bit.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:09:38] Absolutely. And I understand about just moving every step of the way, making sure that things are working according to plan, and understanding what that looks like. As we're talking today, it makes me think about how a lot of times when anticipatory grief begins to unfold, it oftentimes is in the midst of us having to engage with some deep, deep caretaking, particularly around how we're able to provide care for those who may be navigating a particular illness. So can you talk a little bit about some emotions or thoughts that were salient or present for you during your journey caretaking for your grandmother, and navigating all of the emotions that came along with that?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:10:18] Absolutely. So my caretaking journey was slightly different than some. I actually heavily participated from across the country in her caretaking, but then there were two to maybe three times per year where I would go and pick her up, and she would actually come and stay with me and with my family and I on average for about two months. So I would say maybe just under half of the year she was actually in my physical presence, but the rest of the time I was supporting my loved ones in her care journey. I was making doctor's appointments. I was still talking to doctors and nurses and making sure she had what she needed. So that was kind of the difference for me. So, because what I would say about caretaking is caretaking it's essentially unrelenting, right?

Like, you don't necessarily get a break. You don't necessarily have an opportunity to walk away from the situation and just go out and and have a day for yourself. In my case, that I did have a little bit more flexibility in that regard, but in some aspects that was more challenging for me because I felt helpless because I wasn't able to physically be present with her. And so a lot of the emotional aspects for me, I would say, was a mix between probably denial and anger. And the denial came in because I might call her at the right time of the day, the right hour. And she was great, right? Because what she ended up developing was dementia, and that's ultimately what took her life. But as you may or may not know, or some of your listeners may or may not know folks that are suffering from dementia in the earlier stages, they wean in and out of those sorts of things.

It's not like they're just constantly confused or having forgetfulness or things like that. They could have a really good day, they could have a really good hour, and then the rest of the day is not so great, right? And so that gave me, I think an opportunity to kind of rest in denial a little bit longer than I probably wanted to. Because I would talk to her and things just, they were great. We would laugh and we were talking about old times and all the things, but at the other side of that, it was also the anger. My grandmother raised me, and so she was quite a bit older than my friend's moms, right? And so just knowing that I still had a number of life milestones to live. I hadn't had children yet. I was married. But there were just so many things that I had this vision that I had for her and I, and her being right by my side during some of those moments. And so I began to realize that was what was making me very angry. Just the thought of the fact that she may not be here to celebrate some of those milestones with me and vice versa, me with her.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:13:10] That hits home so deeply with my own personal experience navigating anticipatory grief, right? I think about those very milestones that you mentioned. I recall very vividly when my husband and I got married. My mom had just turned 50 at the time, and we were in a place where we were still building. So financially we weren't able to throw her the birthday bash of her dreams. But we kept saying, we got you at 60. And unfortunately, she passed away at the age of 54. And the way that I dealt with her initial diagnosis, realizing that they gave her months to live robbed me of peace in ways that I really can't put language to.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:13:50] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:13:51] And I think about how, just similar to your experience, there was anger at the fact that she would no longer be here to bear witness to all of the many seeds she had planted in my life, to witness my children grow up. To see all of the many prayers that she had prayed over me answered it. There was just a deep sense of hurt and anger and pain knowing that that was the story. But I'll mention here, I'm a woman of faith, and I believe that in some form or facet that there could be a miracle in this.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:14:23] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:14:24] And I was hoping for that, but I was also mindful of the fact that it could very much so be her time. And so it was navigating kind of the spectrum of hope, but then also just anguish, knowing that this could very much so be the end.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:14:38] Yeah. I can so relate to that. And I think one of the challenges that many of us face in terms of anticipatory grief is, again, the anticipation of the loss. It hasn't actually happened yet. And so at times I was met with a little pushback from my family and particularly the case I remember, my uncle saying, well, where's your faith? Or my aunt saying, we don't know that this is it. God has the final say. And absolutely, my family we are all believers, and so we strongly believe that God has the final say, and we know he does. But there was just this part of me that began to literally mourn. I mean, for lack of better words, literally mourn the things that I know that she was no longer going to be able to do. I knew in my heart of hearts that the grandmother that I grew up with, that I had spent my entire life with that person, would never be the same.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:15:45] That's so real. I mean, honestly speaking, just grief has so many stages, particularly anticipatory grief, right? And witnessing or bearing witness to them, transforming before your very eyes to the point at times where they may become unrecognizable. It's just a very challenging experience. Can you talk a little bit about the support systems or resources that you found to be most helpful in navigating your feelings around anticipatory grief? Were there any particular things that were useful to you in that season?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:16:18] That's a really good point. I'm going to be honest. I don't think that the average person knows what to do with anticipatory grief. Here's what I will say. What was probably most helpful is just having the time to process things prior to her actually dying. And that time was very precious, because I knew of several cases at that particular point in time where people died suddenly, right? Like, there was just no chance to say goodbye. That was, you saw him, or you talked to him on the phone, and that was it. Never a chance to circle back, but I got a chance to really think strategically about the memories that I had with her, as well as the ones that I could continue to make while I at least physically could be in her presence.

And so, I would say that was likely the biggest support that I had. Again, my family at the time just didn't see it yet, but as things progressed, and they did get to the place where they're like, okay, yeah, we see that some things are going in a different direction. And then she officially got the diagnosis, and they told us the stage she was in, and things of that nature. I would say a gathering with my loved ones, gathering with my family, which at times is very challenging because I live across the country from the majority of them. But gathering with them, being in their physical presence, having good food to eat, laughing, and just spending time together with my grandmother while she was still here, that was probably the biggest support. And I'll be honest, I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge proponent of therapy.

So to be honest with you, though, my therapist, there really wasn't very much that she offered at that time. And grief is something that a lot of therapists acknowledge that, it's understudied, it's not given the space that it's needed at all times. And so, I don't know that that was even that helpful. I mean, it was helpful to talk about some things, but I don't know that it accelerated or improved the way that I processed what I was going through at the time.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:18:34] Kamesha, thank you for sharing that piece, because you're right. oftentimes, the piece with navigating anticipatory grief is that you have time to anticipate the loss, right? And so in that context, it's like, well, I know I have this finite amount of time that the doctors are saying you have left. Like, what does this look like, right? They gave us six months. And at the time I began to think about like, what would I want to say in these six months to even capture the magnitude of who you are to me, right? And there really was not even enough time to even honor her in the ways that I wanted to in that moment. But the things that I could do were like the recording of the videos with her dancing with my son at the time, because I was still pregnant with my second child at the time, or recording videos, or the Christmas that we had, the final Christmas we had with her. We made it big. We had family over, we gave her the best gifts. We wrote sweet cards, right? It was just all of the final celebrations that we had together that I knew that I had to go big or go home, that this was the moment to just really let her know that we love you beyond words.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:19:42] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:19:43] And to know that this would be potentially the final one was just daunting. But I was grateful in a way to just know that I had time to still do it. Because you're right. When people are taken from us suddenly there's no form of closure. There's no form of saying those words to let them know how much they mean. There's no capturing the videos intentionally.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:20:06] Absolutely.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:20:07] And so I think walking through that made me want to show up differently. And even now, I'm not banking on losing nobody. I'm knocking on some wood over here. You can't see it, but I'm more intentional about capturing the videos, recording the messages, right? Saying the words, literally giving people their flowers and saying, I love you. I say, I love you when I get off the phone with friends. I'm intentional. All the things, because you just never know.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:20:32] That's right. You don't, you never know. And I think that your point is so powerful in the sense of just taking the time to make those memories count while we have them. And I think what was also challenging too about my grandmother is I could see her forgetting those memories. So even on my end, it was all the more important too, I almost feel like I spoiled her like what you're saying in the final years of her life, because I could tell, I'm like, okay, well, I want to make sure she remembers this birthday. So it was special times. And thankfully, I'm holding onto those memories now. And I don't know about you, but I found myself, I still have her voice messages.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:21:17] Same.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:21:18] We talked several times a day. So I just listened to them, right? Because I mean, her voice was, it was just so sweet. And she was calling to check on me. So sometimes I'll pop that voicemail out and listen to it, and I'm like, okay, my grannies here checking on me. I know I get to hear her voice. So thankfully we have technology and the things that we now have in our possession that wasn't possible a couple generations ago. To kind of mark some of those memories in the event that we want to share them with our children one day.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:21:56] Yes, a thousand percent yes to everything. I saved the voicemails. There are voicemails I have from her on my birthdays where on my extra birthday now since she's gone. It's one of the first things I'll listen to in the morning, just so I can hear her voice. Just listening to her voice is a gift.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:22:11] Yes.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:22:12] Even as I continue to navigate this world without her. So, yes. Yes.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:22:19] That's so great. That's an excellent point. It's.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:22:22] Yeah. A lot of times when we talk about anticipatory grief it's not often limited to the anticipation of the death alone. It can also involve some of the grieving of the person's abilities and roles that they once held, or even just thinking through the loss of a shared future together. I know we've talked about this a little bit. But I keep thinking back to just how we at times grieve the loss of the future memories or the plans, or just having them in our presence each and every day, right? So, can you talk a little bit about how anticipatory grief impacts relationships, not just with the loved one, but perhaps with other family members and friends, and do you have any advice for how to navigate those changing dynamics within the relationship?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:23:02] So, it's interesting. What I would say is in terms of how this has impacted relationships, I'll speak specifically about my family now, and then I'll kind of branch out from there. I would say, as with many families in the black community, my grandmother was the matriarch. She was the one who brought everybody together. All the dinners and the holiday celebrations were at her home, right? So it was this physical being in her physical presence oftentimes just made us feel like we were at home, right? And so, we got the cooking, we got the games, we have the laughter, we got the TV shows that are coming on, and we're all together. And she created that. So I guess I'll say she set the table in many regards in every sense of the word.

She set the table wherever she went to bring people together. And so, my family, I would say it's impacted relationships in the sense that unfortunately, we just don't gather like we used to. People have their homes and they have their families, and they have the space, to be honest with you. But it's not the same, right? Like, you walk into grandma's house and you can kick your feet off, you can lay your coat down, go wash your hands, go fix a plate, but not in some of these other places, right? Like, I love my family to death, but it's just not the same. So I would say it's impacted unfortunately our connection, the number of times we get together and break bread, the number of times we see each other. And so that's the unfortunate part. Although my uncle and I are really talking about trying to mend some of those relationships and create space and opportunity for us to gather again.

Because we all desperately miss it. Life is hard these days. And so we absolutely need our family and our loved ones. Wish I had better news there, but I also have to acknowledge that my family is still grieving her loss. She was the nurturer, she was that "person" for almost everybody, even though she made me feel like I was the only one and I was special. There are several people in my family that would describe her that way. And so we are all still dealing with that. And my hope and my prayer is that God continues to mend our family and bring us back together to spend those times and make those new memories for future generations for my kids. But in terms of other relationships, I would say in terms of my friends and my certain colleagues at work, I do cherish.

I really do cherish authentic relationships. I always have, but all the more now, right? Just seeing how important these sorts of things are. My grandmother sowed a lot of seeds throughout her life, did a lot of good for people. And at the end of her life, everybody showed up, right? Like they were able to be there. We were able to be around her bed. We were able to ensure she was comfortable, and she had what she needed. And there's a whole lesson in that, right? Like, when you cultivate relationships throughout your life, your job could care less whether you're there tomorrow or not. But those relationships that you cultivate at the end of the day when you're on your deathbed and God is calling you home, that is what's going to sustain you. So that's what I would say. Just the valuing more authentic relationships way, way, way, way, way, way less tolerant of relationships that are not adding to my life. And it's a synergistic kind of way where it's not me constantly taking, or them constantly taking. But at the end of the day, just wanting folks to know that I love them and give them their flowers, like you said, while we have the chance.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:27:15] Yes. Thank you so much for that. It's so interesting when we think about how relationships are shaped or impacted by anticipatory grief. I will mention on the back end of grief, I didn't anticipate the secondary losses that happened, the loss in people that were in community with my mom, that on the backend kind of phased out in some ways, didn't really kind of call to check in and see how we were grieving or navigating her absence. That was our first major loss in our family. And so it was the unanticipated of those losses. The people that I grew up with, or the people that I thought would kind of shadow or hug around us, hug us in the midst of our pain that were for lack of a better word, absent in a lot of ways. And so, it's that emotional baggage that you don't recognize would be part of one's grief journey until it happened. And it's like, wow, okay, we were all together for the final services, but on the back end, it felt very alone and isolating at times. And so.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:28:17] Yeah, that's an excellent point. Some of those relationships that you assumed would continue onward because you all have been in each other's life for a long time. I completely get that. And even just to add to that point, I just think about the times that my grandmother reached out or was there to support people, and then not seeing them on the back end come by and show up for her. That was very challenging. But one thing I will say is I've also gotten very strategic and conscious of those around me that might be also going through some anticipatory grief or grief in general, right? So now I make it a point to reach out to my loved ones and my dear friends when I know a milestone might be coming up, or when I know that, this is the time of the year where maybe they found out about their loved one's sickness or this is the time of the year where they passed away.

And now you can attest,I mean, I'm on social media, but I'm not on social media. So when I say that I'm keeping track, like it's not popping up in my feed anywhere to remind me, like, I literally intentionally write it down, set a calendar reminder and all those things, because I know, like when you're in the thick of it and there's something coming up, something that triggers you, time of the year, birthday, kids birthdays, things like that, that's when, oh, it just comes in these really strong waves, grief does. And so I'm way more conscious now of when those times are here for other people. And I try my best to show up in that way.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:30:13] Hmm. I just love that so much. And that intentionality is so important, honestly, because when we are able to really extend ourselves in that capacity to show up for other people, it means the world in more ways than one. Can you talk a little bit in the same vein, sometimes there's cultural and societal beliefs that shape our experiences and understandings of anticipatory grief. Have you noticed any unique challenges of supports in different cultures that you might be aware of that have shaped how anticipatory grief has unfolded in your life personally?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:30:46] Absolutely. I would say particularly with anticipatory grief, in my culture, in my community specifically, I'll speak about mine. There was no space for anticipatory grief. It was oftentimes met with a little bit of pushback. Aren't you grateful for the time you have now? She's here now. Where's your faith? Like I mentioned before, I don't see any issues. What, like, are you trying to create something? Things are going well right now. And so some of those things really does produce in the individual, guilt or shame, because the perception is, well, why are you thinking about what might happen a year from now when you have your grandmother or your loved one with you now. I will say that what makes it challenging in terms of the cultural dynamic is that my grandmother died at 92 years old.

And so most people in the family, our loved ones, our pastor, I mean, they met us with like, well, you should be celebrating like 92 years is a very long time. She lived a good life and all these things, not that they aren't true, however, she is permanently physically gone now. And so I don't know that the space that I needed at the time to really process this was there. And I think that in hindsight we really have to do a better job of realizing the mental toll that caretaking has on individuals particularly those that are really close to the individual in their final months on this earth. And seeing them suffer, seeing their independence begin to wane and seeing the need to help them to take care of some of their bodily functions.

It is tough because you realize this person that you once looked to for strength and encouragement and all the things they're waning. They're never going to be the same again. And so I do think we have to do a better job at supporting those that are taking care of our loved ones and not just supporting them with, well, hey, do you need me to make a doctor's appointment for the individual or should I come over and sit with them while you ran to the grocery store? Although those things are helpful too, but just giving people space and time and opportunity to talk to you about what they're feeling, because we can't act like it's not happening. It's there oftentimes there's a lot of fear around that.

And I don't know about you, Dr. Chi, but my family final arrangements are very challenging to talk about. So after my grandmother passed, there was that, right? Like, okay, who's getting what? And where's the will? Oh, well, there is no will. Oh, okay, so now what? So it's a very complex issue, and I think that we need space, we need opportunity to talk about it, and our loved ones need to be okay with whatever that looks like for the other person.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:34:22] That is such a good point, particularly to your last mention around final arrangements, right? I think at times with anticipatory grief, there is grace in some ways to get one's house in order because you know that there is an impending sickness or illness that is here that will at some point lead to their end, right? And so I think about what that looked like for us in some ways where there were particular items that still needed to be attended to, but knowing that we had a timeframe also quickened our footsteps to make sure that the house was in order so that we would mitigate as much stress, strife, turmoil, fighting as much as possible by having those conversations upfront. And I don't want to say it was a gift per se, but I definitely will say that thinking about it and reflecting on it now with you, it was a very needed reminder of how important it is to make sure that in any context, whether you're caretaking or not, that we do the necessary work of making sure we have our end of life plans together, making sure your estate is in order. Because all too often, and particularly from my cultural standpoint as a Nigerian American people don't want to talk about death. We feel like we're going to live forever. We're not immortal,we know that. But you got to attend to the business at hand. Lest you learn the hard way in some ways, right?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:35:51] Absolutely.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:35:52] Yeah. I want to. Go ahead.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:35:53] No, I was just going to say I have a family member now that's going through a pretty serious medical crisis. And he is married, he was in the process of unfortunately divorcing his wife although nothing was final when this all happened. And now his wife is in court suing to get total rights of all his medical care, all of his items, everything essentially, right? And what's challenging that I found out in this scenario is that even though he had moved forward and started the paperwork to get a divorce, but just hadn't officially found filed it, the law, at least in the state of Illinois, goes in the order of the wife, the kids, the grandkids, the mother and father, and then the siblings. And so his mother and his sister are the ones taking care of him now. And so they are literally facing a scenario where they may not be able to see him for very much longer, and they're way down on the totem pole. Because he has like nine kids and about six grandkids. So it's really important to do this work. And that's another reason I'm grateful for you having your podcast.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:37:08] Well, thank you so much for that. So I want to transition a little bit and talk about some strategies, advice, because again, you have been sharing so many gems for those who may be navigating anticipatory grief. So could you talk a little bit perhaps about some advice you would offer to someone who's at the beginning phases of their journey, caretaking for a sick loved one, and perhaps what advice might you offer them in helping them to navigate their own anticipatory grief that comes with that circumstance?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:37:37] Absolutely. I would wholeheartedly say continue to give that individual their flowers while they are here. Although they may not necessarily, depending on their stage or the issues that they're dealing with health-wise, they may not necessarily remember. But there is something about the heart and the spirit that it doesn't matter if the person has lost their hearing, if they've lost their sight, if they're forgetful, if they have cognitive decline, there is some level of connection that remains between you and your loved ones. So never forget that. I think that God has positioned you also to be in that individual's life at this particular time for a reason. And so, although it may feel extremely burdensome, and although it may feel like you have no idea how you're going to get up in the morning and do this again, or another day of this, or another chemotherapy treatment or whatever it may be, just know that God is actually giving you the gift of presence, right?

And so being able to be there, what greater expression of love can you express than being with an individual during their most absolutely darkest moments of their life, but being there and being kind, and being gentle, and being nurturing and still loving them through and through. And so I would actually say, while it is important to make space for yourself emotionally to feel what you're feeling, to grieve the future loss of your loved one, of the milestones that they may miss or of the things that you may miss in their lives. Also keep in mind that right now, right now, today, at this moment, is absolutely the most priceless moment that you have with that individual. Tomorrow isn't promised.

Tonight isn't promised. And so to take that time to try your best to maybe delegate some of those incredibly emotionally taxing tasks like final expense planning, reach out to your insurance person, have them get a couple quotes, just any of those things that you can take off of your plate, but still keep them moving, I strongly encourage you to do that and focus on spending the time with your loved one.

Of course, they'll make the final arrangements. I mean, I think we're both clear there, but this is a gift, frankly. We don't always get the chance to say goodbye to our loved ones. And when it's all said and done. I have to acknowledge I did have a great deal of peace at my grandmother's funeral and her final services just knowing I could close her eyes and see her smile because I put that smile on her face. I gave her the opportunity to laugh. God blessed me with the opportunity to take her to see family she hadn't seen in 40 years, whereas others were struggling in a very different way, right? And so just sit with that and don't be afraid to talk about it with someone that you love and that you trust. Memories are all we have these days. I still make grandma's peach cobbler every year for her birthday that-

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:05] You are a good cook, girl.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:41:06] Good.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:07] Phenomenal.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:41:08] Thank you. So yeah, this is what life is about at the end of the day. All the other things we can't take what us but with this here. I know I did. I know I did what God wanted me to do, so I can rest assured in that.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:41:24] I just smiled just listening to you just to describe all the things that you were able to do in her final moments to capture those memories. In that same spirit we know that caretaking is challenging in more ways than one, right? Particularly when we're navigating anticipatory grief. So can you share perhaps any advice that you might offer caregivers who are looking for ways to find joy, love, and connection with their ailing loved ones?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:41:52] Absolutely. So the thing I'll say about that is I recall sitting down with the hospice nurse when my grandmother got to the point where the doctors pretty much said there was nothing else they could do. And I remember the hospice nurse coming over and offering all these services and my family saying, no, no, no, no, we got it. Don't worry about it. No, no, no, no, we don't want that. We can take care of this. We can do that. And I had to really push back a little bit and to say, these people are here to help us. Let's accept the help. It may not always be the meal of choice that they're going to drop off. It may not necessarily be an ideal situation, but let's be grateful for the services that we do have. Because when they take cleaning off the list, or meal prepping or bringing over medication or any of those things, guess what that gives us time to do. That gives us time to love on her and to be there with her and spend that time without being burdened with the logistics of her care.

So I would say take the help if you're in a position to get that. Also, local hospitals and social workers at local hospitals are really good with connecting folks with resources to ensure that the individual has what they need. Also, if at all possible, the power of a good journal, get out that notebook and pad.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:43:22] Come on.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:43:23] Write and just dump. Right? Nobody has to read it necessarily, but you do need an outlet. Oftentimes with caretaking, it is about that other individual. It's not about you, right? Because you're trying to keep them comfortable. But you do have to find those little small moments where you care for yourself and you give yourself the time and space that you need in order to recuperate. Because the one thing that you do not want to do is also make yourself sick on your journey for caring for your loved one. They wouldn't want that, and that's not going to help you or them, right? So that's the strategy is to take the help. If there's local support, if there's a neighbor that is willing to step up and ask for help, it's okay for us to need people. Now, I am not the right person to be relaying this message yet, but I'm a work in progress. I'm on my way. But we all need somebody. And it's okay. It's okay. That's not a sign of weakness. That's actually a sign of strength because you know your capacity and you know how to enact your support system when you need it. So prayer, all the things are really important to get you through these challenging times.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:44:46] Thank you so much for that, Kamesha. I have one final question for you. Yeah. So the focus of this podcast, Grieving in Color, is about exploring the various ways that we see grief unfold in our daily lives, especially in the wake of anticipatory grief. So, we talked a lot about how to navigate preparing for the eventual loss of the loved one, but once that loss happens can you talk a little bit about what it looks like to grieve in color after having kind of grieved in the beginning for so long, walking with them through that loss? And do you have any advice for how people can cope on the backend once they've lost their loved one?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:45:25] Yeah. That is such an important question. I would say. Once the loss has occurred and you're dealing with their lack of their presence from here on out, what I have found that is comforting at times, right? Because grief comes in waves. There are good days and bad days. I can't promise you that it gets easier. I think you just come up with different ways to deal with it and different coping strategies. But what I would say is what can you do in your life to uphold this individual's legacy? What were some of the things that they instilled in you? Like I mentioned before, my grandmother was a nurturer. She was a caretaker. She was really big on being there for her family.

And so those things are alive and well in me. And I'm pressed to believe that in the event you think about your loved one and your own personal experiences for the listeners, there are some facets of that that are still here with you. I think it's also really important to hold space for yourself particularly during times that you know are going to be challenging. So for me, I gave birth to my son in 2021, which was about almost two years after she died. And I knew that seeing his face for the first time was going to remind me of her because she was there the next day after my daughter came home from the hospital. And so I knew that was going to be a trigger moment for me. A lot of times, if you really just sit back and think about your life and the things that you were anticipating prior to the death that person was going to miss, when those events actually happen, oftentimes they do trigger you not be in moment that you are experiencing.

So my advice is to really think about what those moments are for you. For me, it's her birthday. It's the day that she died, which ironically was also on her birthday. It's also around my kids' birthday and holidays, like Christmas and Thanksgiving. So those are my moments where I know I have to be extra graceful with myself because I know that it's going to be challenging. And let's see, any other strategies? Get your own affairs in order. I'm working on an estate. Putting that together, my will, all the things so that my children don't have to worry about that. And I also started a scholarship in her name, which was really important to me because she had an eighth grade education and she sacrificed all the things in order for me to go to college.

And so some strategies that I've also used has been actually just creating positive memories and helping to keep her legacy alive. Definitely talking to your loved ones, a therapist would be great. If you have a trusted one that you can talk to that's grief informed and listening to Dr. Chi's podcast, right? Like, this stuff.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:48:57] Come on now.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:48:58] And this is what healing looks like, right? Like, being able to actually talk about it. Because for me, to be honest, I felt like I've been mourning her death almost nonstop for like four years, and I've been mourning more than I have not been, right? So, like, at the end of the day, finding places where you can kind of see and hear your experiences reflected is also critical to caring for yourself.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:49:25] Kamesha, thank you so much for all of that, honestly, all of those gems that you just shared with the listeners. And as you were talking and as we're kind of wrapping up right now I just think about how oftentimes nothing in life prepares you to step into the realm of caretaking. There's not a class, there's not orientation, there is nothing that prepares you for the magnitude of effort, time, emotional, physical, psychological, labor, and turmoil that you will walk through when you are engaged in that. And I remember on the back end as my mom was nearing the end of her life. I was so overwhelmed. My daughter was three months postpartum after I had her. And I remember one morning I was just thinking about how will I survive this? What does this look like?

Because we were still in the thick of caretaking. And I remember just getting the download from the Lord and reminding myself that it was an honor to be there for her in that moment. And I carry that with me, to be honest with you, even till her passing, knowing that I had an opportunity to demonstrate to her the immense unmeasurable amount of love she had given me my entire life. And it was an absolute honor to stand with her when she needed me the most. And so that stands with me because I don't have to walk in regret even though it was hard. I can still walk and love and cherish everything that she gave me because I freely gave it right back. So I want to thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:51:00] That was beautiful.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:51:02] Yes. Oh, thank you, Kamesha. All right, y'all, we about to get weary on here today. Okay. Look. Okay. [crosstalk 00:51:08] I know, I know. Kamesha, I want to thank you so much for your time, for taking the opportunity to share more with guests about how to navigate the ins and outs of caretaking, especially in the wake of anticipatory grief. I wanted to ask, do you have any upcoming events or releases that you would like to share with guests today as we wrap things up?

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:51:28] So, I have a few upcoming talks next month in October. And I'll be packing some of my work, additional work around mental health and the black community stigma and things of that nature. That's going to be at NEOMED, it's a medical school in Northeast Ohio. And then I'm also going to be presenting some of my work on racial trauma among college students in [indiscernible 00:51:55] Jamaica in November.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:51:56] Alright.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:51:57] Just to share the knowledge there. And so, yeah, definitely continuing these conversations. In all my circles, I'm really, really big on wellness, emotional wellness and self-care. About to start a new book by Dr. Anita Phillips called something-

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:52:19] In the Garden. Yes.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:52:20] So I'm going to start that. And, and this is a lifetime journey, right? Like, this is not something that I just do once or twice a year. This is a walk for me. And so I just want to equip myself with strategies and the knowledge and the verbiage and the vocabulary to label what I'm feeling, to label what it is that I need, and to be able to really speak very candidly about that. So that's what I got going on, and I'll be continuing to listen to Dr. Chi's podcast along the way. And yeah. And so I'm on the socials, I'm on Instagram at-

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:53:03] Yes. How can they find you? Come on now.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:53:07] It's @drkameshaspates Instagram and more so LinkedIn. Facebook is spotty for me, so LinkedIn as well as Instagram is where you can find me. So thank you.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:53:18] Alright, thank you Dr. Spates. So I'll have all of these resources and her social media platform is linked in the show notes. After we've conclude today's episode. Dr. Spates, I can't thank you enough for coming here today to share more with the amazing listeners about how to navigate anticipatory grief. Good people. This concludes our episode. Thank you so much for today. If there's anyone that could benefit from this episode, please feel free to share with them across various platforms. And until next time, please keep grieving in color.

Dr. Kamesha Spates [00:53:46] Thank you for having me.

Dr. Chinasa Elue [00:53:47] Thank you, thank you.

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Thank you for choosing to spend time with me on this episode of Grieving in Color. If today's episode has resonated with you, or if you know someone who might benefit from our conversation, please share this episode with them. Also, I would love to hear your thoughts, your stories, and the ways I can support you as you navigate your own grief. You can reach out to me on my website at www.drchinasaelue.com or connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram @drchinasaelue. Your participation, your feedback, and your story helps us keep this conversation going and reaches those who need it the most. Remember, there's no right way to grieve. There's only your way, and every shade of your grief is valid.

This episode of Grieving in Color is produced by Crys & Tiana.

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